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Glee

It’s a show that your youth are watching. I guarantee it. It has absolutely taken over the nation. Check Twitter on Wednesday morning and you’re going to see where people are posting all about Glee, or as the phrase has been coined, they are “Gleeked out.” (Or something like that.)

Anyways, this show is a phenomenon for youth. In my very youth group I’ve had students talking about the show. So, one night I sat down, saw it on, and I had to see what it was all about. In my head, I was thinking “High School Musical.” I was half-right.

The first episode that was ever on my tv was turned off within about 15 minutes. Two girls came up to one of the guys in the Glee club after class and propositioned him to make out with both of them. Whether this was the extent of their hope is unknown, but they were very forward in their attempts, to the point where in my opinion it suggested they would do more than make out. It was very sex-filled.

The second episode was a couple of weeks later as we were passing through the channels late on a Tuesday. My wife stopped on Fox as Glee was on to hear one of the songs while I was on the computer. At the conclusion of the song, one of the girls from the show, who is nothing more than the popular girl who is popular with all the boys, comes up to one of the guys everyone thought was gay but found out he wasn’t. She said something to the effect of, “I’ve made out with all the guys in our class but you because I thought you were gay, but since you weren’t, I’d like to add you to the list.”

It turned off shortly after that.

Since that point, I’ve had many a conversation about the show with people. For the most part, those who are in ministerial leadership look at the show with disgust, and rightfully so might I add. But, when mentioning it to youth and others, you run into the problem of not being able to filter out the trash that comes with the show. I’m not pretending that I have it all together, but I do recognize that there are some shows and themes of shows that absolutely should NOT be permitted into our minds. The two examples above seemed to solidify that form of thinking in my mind.

Last night, the Glee episode was trending on Twitter this morning. The title: Grilled Cheesus caught my eye, so I began to do some research. I read through the plot and figured what better way to spend my morning than watching the episode from last night on Fox.com. Who doesn’t need a few teaching points.

The show featured the main popular character making a grilled cheese and seeing the face of Jesus on it. He begins to pray to the grilled cheese for three things: 1.) That they win their football game, 2.) That he can touch his girlfriend’s breasts, and 3.) That he can be the new QB for the football team. Long story short, all three of them happen. He soon realizes that God did not allow those things to happen and does a stirring rendition of “Losing My Religion.”

If you just read through that paragraph and didn’t wince at the complete sacrilege  of the plot of the show, then I don’t know what is wrong.

The other themes in the show go with a heart-wrenching battle as the gay character’s father has a heart attack and is in a coma. The many spiritual kids in Glee club want to pray for the father, but the gay character refuses to let them.

The mean, evil teacher battles over the students singing religiously themed/spiritually themed songs in Glee club and makes the claim that students are not allowed to do that on school ground.

In the end, I don’t know what the theme was besides loving everyone.

There are true points to what was on the show last night. They talk about how the church has done a poor job of loving the gay community – and that’s a true sentiment. You see that through the lives of the friends.

In the end though, I have to give a “Big Whoop” to that.

If you are a Christian and you watch Glee, I really don’t understand why. If you’re a parent who watches Glee, stop. If you’re a teen and you’re reading this blog, you surprise me and I want you to stop watching Glee. If you’re a parent who lets your teen watch Glee, then stop. I don’t understand the fascination within churches with Glee. There is nothing but pure justification for sin in watching the show.

The show is filthy. It is laced with anti-Biblical messages.

I am all for love. I am all for taking care of people no matter what sins they are involved in. But we have to say enough is enough with media. Christians absolutely should not partake in watching Glee. And Glee is just the beginning. What other shows should we stamp out?

Simply put – the themes and ideas that are presented within any show that you watch…does the Bible tell us to flee from them? If so – don’t begin to argue with me about why it’s okay to watch the show. We all (present company included) must flee from sin. We must not allow those themes in our lives. We must turn to Christ and be a new creature. No matter if it’s “House M.D.,” “Outsourced,” or “Glee” we must set the stage for our youth in showing them that we shouldn’t allow those things into our minds.

Thoughts?

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Categories: Media
  1. Wes Rhodes
    October 7, 2010 at 2:52 am

    Its not christian media, don’t expect it to present God in all the glory He deserves. The secular media is never going to create something that honors God the way He should be, but that is no reason to completely shut yourself off from it. You would have to remove yourself from the world completely in order to never experience things like this. The more you can learn about the world’s perspective the better. To watch the show and be aware of the wrong morals portrayed is constructive and beneficial. To watch the show and be unaware of the wrong portrayals can indeed be harmful. What is more harmful than secular media, is American Christianity. The lies and false gospels sweeping the nation are the real threats to the youth. People like Joel Osteen and his prosperity gospel, or the lie that a simple prayer has the magic words to save you are killing the country. Saying that it is sinful to watch this is ridiculous. Would it be sinful to watch an atheist debate on a T.V. show? No. What’s the difference, they are both portraying sins… the problem is that many Christians point to “sins” in the media and forget about the sins in their own lives. What does God care about? The heart and obedience. Does watching God hinder that for me? No. Could it hinder some people? Absolutely, but to put a blanket statement of watching it being “sin” is just not true.

  2. Wes Rhodes
    October 7, 2010 at 3:09 am

    And what is wrong with “House M.D.”? It is absolutely brilliant both in art, and in how much wisdom you can gain about atheistic worldview. Do you think that only things that are blatantly Christian should be watched? Become all things to all people, so that by all means, some might be saved… how are we supposed to relate to people if we ignore THE number one way that ideas and beliefs are portrayed in our culture? Even John Piper watched Avatar, he found the meaning to be anti-christian and indeed it is, but he could have just as easily read a plot summary and discovered the same thing; however, it is more beneficial to watch it and gain social relevance. Watching it is not evil. You are obviously interested in apologetics, but how are you going to converse with an atheist if you have no concept of their art, culture, or their beliefs expressed in secular media. Sure you may know the facts of their perspective as if read from a textbook, but you will find out fast that textbook knowledge leaves you with no understanding of anything but the facts, you must learn how they live.

    • October 7, 2010 at 10:12 am

      I actually watched the episode of Glee that I talked about. In fact, if you look back over everything that I had posted, I clearly stated that I had seen specific parts of Glee to recognize that the show is filthy. There is no reason for justification. Why do I need to watch Glee in order to better understand the culture? The issue here is not understanding culture better, but allowing sinful ideas to be passed as truth. Teenagers should not be watching a show that completely skews what true Christianity is. Again, there is no justification for the show.

      Yes, I have read atheist books and watched debates with atheists. Why? To better understand their point of view. In the middle of the debate or the book do they launch into sexually suggestive language? No, they don’t. What they do is look at it from an academic prospective.

      I suppose, by your argument, that we should all go out and watch “The Hangover” so we will still be “in the world, not of the world.” Yet, I’ll call you on that one, too. I have no problem if someone is sitting down one time to watch a show or movie that they want to watch to better understand the points of view to be more relevant to the people that they talk to. Glee is one of those that I don’t have a problem with. The show was dealing with religion. I was hoping to glean some positives from the show. But, the Hangover, by its title alone I know I don’t need to watch it to better understand.

      As far as House M.D. goes, I actually own five seasons of that on DVD. My point is, if they run with ideas of “13” and promote her bisexual encounters, I have no problem shutting that out of my life. Why? Because that is what Scripture commands. We are to be pure and sexually moral. Glee does not accomplish that. If the writers of House continue the route it appears that they might, House will disappear because we do NOT need to be watching two females engaging in sexual acts.

      The problem in America is American Christianity. But how did we get to this point? I have to honestly suggest that people watching media and ideas that they should not allow into their lives is part of the downward spiral called “American Christianity.”

      In the end, it is ridiculous that a Christian can allow such themes into their lives.

  3. Wes Rhodes
    October 7, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    Again, if watched through a strict analytical lense, culture does not need to be avoided. And you act like the audience is sexually immoral or allowing sin into their lives by watching it. No more so than when you watched it. Watching 13 engage in sexual relations with other women is indeed repulsive, but the value comes with the incredibly deep psychological understandings of how her huntingtons is affecting her worldview and moral decisions.

  4. October 7, 2010 at 1:34 pm

    And nowhere in my post did I ever mention that we should “avoid culture.”

    But, Biblically, we are to filter what is right and true (ie. Philippians 4:8). The age old argument against “garbage in/garbage out” claiming that certain things don’t effect us is one of the biggest lies in the church today. THAT is what is wrong with the American Church, in that we do not place a great deal of authority on the Bible, but instead claim that we know better than God.

    If you can watch those shows and feel okay, then by all means, feel free. But I have also noticed every time I have tried to justify an action that is clearly condemned by Scripture, without using Scripture, it’s a defense mechanism.

  5. Justin
    October 7, 2010 at 2:04 pm

    I find if we have to justify our actions or ask whether it is a sin or not, the sin has already been committed. Why should we be trying to decide where the line of sin is so we can creep as closely as we can to it while justifying our own sin? If we are not fleeing from sin like the scriptures say, then we are living in sin.

    Watching a show once or twice to gain knowledge about that show can be helpful to a Christian witness. For instance, I had a friend suggest I watch Religulous so that we could talk about the things he believes. I sat down and watched it. Would I suggest every Christian do this? Definitely not. Would I praise Bill Maher and say he did a good job? Certainly not.

    When we Christians see no problem in actively tuning in each week to garbage that glorifies a sinful lifestyle, we are bringing that into our daily walk. How can setting your DVR to record Glee each week be considered fleeing from sin?

    I’ve had shows that I had to stop watching because I got convicted. The writers go in a direction that wasn’t in there at the beginning and if they continue on it Christians should be strong enough to say no more. If we blur the lines of sin and try to justify it, all truth will fall away from what we are saying. That is where the term hypocrite gets tossed around so much. That is why the emerging church does not work.

    I’m not claiming to be perfect, but I’m humble enough to at least admit that when I watch certain things they are just that, sin.

    I’d like to know how well you can learn academically about culture and huntington’s disease from shows that glorify it with fictional plots rather than from documentaries and research about the actual things you claim to be researching.

  6. Justin
    October 7, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    I’d like to add…
    I justified buying all sorts of inappropriate music. This was my “research” into what kids are listening to. I was able to find lots of bands to switch people to so they could listen to Christian music rather than some of the popular bands that they are listening to. Here’s where the problem came though. My research turned from research into consumption. This cut into my tithes as I was buying new music weekly. This cut into many areas of my life as all day I was ingesting this filth which I claimed was research. I was able to give some people bands to listen to instead of the secular ones yet I wasn’t kicking the secular ones out of my life. The “research” I was doing could’ve been done in one listening. Myspace and sites like that give plenty of means for that. I let my “research” turn into a problematic lifestyle that I was claiming to be helping others out of.

    Recently, I’ve gotten rid of a lot of music and kept only that which is not riddled with filthy themes. Instead of listening to that all day I find myself listening to much more wholesome music from Christian artists and a lot more worship. I find my iPod full of sermons from podcasts rather than Slipknot and others like them.

    Is there a better means for researching Huntington’s Disease than watching House and sifting through the homo-erotic behavior? Why don’t we all be honest with ourselves and say that watching House for that reason is not only lying to yourself and others but is lying to God. If you want to research Huntington’s, there are much better options.

    My older brother is a homosexual. I did my research from books and sermons from an ex gay Pastor rather than trying to get into the gay culture.

    Becoming everything to everyone does not mean that you indulge in sin. It’s about lowering yourself. Jesus did this through his ministry. Where others would not talk to the lepers, the prostitutes or the outcast, he lowered himself to become them (not their sin) so he might reach them and love them.

  7. Wes Rhodes
    October 7, 2010 at 4:48 pm

    “If you can watch those shows and feel okay, then by all means, feel free. But I have also noticed every time I have tried to justify an action that is clearly condemned by Scripture, without using Scripture, it’s a defense mechanism.”

    Where is it condemned in scripture? Sure, if I were to engage in homosexual acts I would be sinning, and should flee from that… but there is nothing wrong with watching a show in which that is a very insignificant aspect as long as it is done with active filtering of what kind of moral teachings you let into your thoughts. And Justin, you completely misunderstood what I was saying about 13, its not her Huntington’s that Im learning about… its the psychological reasoning behind her worldview changing and her moral demise because of a life-impending disease.

    And so you think there is no problem of learning about their worldview if it is strictly academic? Then you are leaving out their culture, expression, and art. You can enjoy listening to an evolution debate because of the stimulating intellectual points, why would you not be able to enjoy analyzing secular media. I think the problem is I haven’t expressed my views very clearly. I do NOT think it wise to watch shows like Glee purely for entertainment; however, I do believe that you can enjoy shows like Glee why doing it through a Biblically based analytical lens.

    You talk about these topics as if they really were clearly laid out in scripture, but they are not. Look at the verses and their context and you will find that they are addressing specific issues within the church, and are focused on obedience in the lives of believers. What you watch does not matter, your heart and what you do matters. If watching something causes you to lust or disobey in any way then it is wrong. True some people are negatively affected by media yet deny it, but you are wrong in saying that it is universally a lie. Many people can watch secular media and not be affected. If being exposed to sin meant that you were sinning or that you would definitely be negatively affected, then it would also be wise to never associate with nonbelievers (or most christians for that matter).

  8. Wes Rhodes
    October 7, 2010 at 5:05 pm

    “I’ll just point out one principle because we can talk about this forever. What concerns me is the distinction between entertainment and cultural analysis. To watch something, to study the culture, learn from the culture, be more able to interact with unbelievers for the sake of the glory of Christ is one thing. To just sit and bask in nudity, or bask in fifty f-words, or bask in a world view that is shot through with arrogance to the core, and enjoy it? Hmm. That seems to point to something going on in the heart. And frankly, I have tasted it big time. I think today we are going to have to work at not being shaped by the world because the world has made its world view so scintillatingly attractive.”

    What John Piper says here is pretty much what Im getting at.

  9. October 8, 2010 at 9:34 am

    Maybe we’re talking about the same thing in two different ways. What my main point is:

    Christians should not week after week watch a show, such as Glee, that glorifies sin and sends a complete and unbiblical message. There is nothing beneficial of it. What is beneficial in watching one or two episodes from a critical standpoint, is now I am able to have talking points with my youth group over the show whenever they bring it up. I have specific shows and instances within the show that I can talk with them to show them why it is not good for a Christian to watch the show.

    If this is not what you’re talking about, then I’m afraid I don’t know what else to say.

    As for Scripture not addressing such issues, I’m afraid that is completely incorrect. While Paul does speak to churches and the instances that they are facing, does this Scripture not apply to our lives the same?

    Philippians 4:8: “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.”

    Are we exempt from thinking of such things? Was that only for the believers in Philippi? If that is what you believe, then there are obviously issues that go deeper than watching Glee and justifying it from an “academic” standpoint.

    Finally, and just disregard this if my first paragraph summarized your thoughts and feelings and we have been doing an unnecessary merry-go-round, but I have two questions.

    First, is it okay for a teenager to watch Glee?

    Secondly, is it okay for someone to watch pornography from a “strictly academic” point of view, so that one can understand the “culture, expression, and art?” Honest question.

  10. Justin
    October 8, 2010 at 9:53 am

    I believe this still falls under the justification of sin category.

    Taking something in from a culture and academic standpoint is not the same as tuning in each week and devoting at least an hour weekly to a TV show that glorifies sin. I believe you do not really understand what it is that you are saying. Where do we draw the lines? How am I supposed to talk to a drug addict when I really have no idea what a drug addiction is like? How would I be able to connect with an addict better and really understand them? The best way would be to become an addict. I could twist the verse talking about becoming all things to try to justify this point as well. What about the call to be holy?
    We see this in 1 Peter chapter 1.

    “13 Wherefore girding up the loins of your mind, be sober and set your hope perfectly on the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves according to your former lusts in the time of your ignorance:15 but like as he who called you is holy, be ye yourselves also holy in all manner of living;16 because it is written, Ye shall be holy; for I am holy.17 And if ye call on him as Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to each man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear:18 knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers;19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ:20 who was foreknown indeed before the foundation of the world, but was manifested at the end of times for your sake,21 who through him are believers in God, that raised him from the dead, and gave him glory; so that your faith and hope might be in God.22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth unto unfeigned love of the brethren, love one another from the heart fervently:23 having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.”

    I see no room in there for letting such things into our daily life. “Seeing ye have purified your souls in your obedience to the truth…” Sounds pretty plain and simple there. No twisting, no misuse, no interpretation.

    Is a show that glorifies sin ever really the best way to learn about anything? Surely not. Pick up a documentary. Read a book. There are plenty resources available in 2010 that you don’t need to let sin in any form into your life as a way to do research on something that there are countless resources for.

    Megan Moss just recently had a heart transplant at the age of 24. She blogged about the entire ordeal. If you really want to see how a life threatening disease effects one’s outlook on life and how they approach daily things, read that. There are more like it I’m sure. http://meganrmoss.blogspot.com/

    You’re confusing what we are saying as completely removing yourself from the world making you ineffective as a witness. This is merely twisting what it is that we are really saying. Either way you look at it, you are justifying sin when you tune in weekly to these types of shows or let stuff into your life that are purely against God’s word as I did with my music. It might have been under the cover of research, but it wasn’t. Research doesn’t take daily devotion on something of this manner.

  11. Wes Rhodes
    October 8, 2010 at 1:20 pm

    @ Ryan, yes I think we are talking about similar things, but as for the scripture reference… of-course we apply it to our lives but changing the intended meaning of the verse is wrong. And what you watch and what your thoughts can be while you watch it are completely separate things. You can watch a show like Glee or House and despise the sin portrayed but take joy from learning and analyzing the minds of sinners. What makes a documentary any better? Wouldn’t you still be thinking about sin and be unbiblical. Of-course watching pornography is wrong, for one it is real sin and only sin with no beneficial aspects, and two, it generates lust in the heart of the viewers.

    @ Justin. This is the whole reason I enjoy analyzing T.V. shows so much… want to learn about drug addiction, read about it, but to understand it on a personal level then the best way aside from befriending and spending time with one is to analyze vivid and accurate portrayals such as House M.D.
    Also, your presuppositions that it is wrong are ruining your logic… your arguments just don’t hold up. First you must prove that it is wrong, and then you can make points like “What about being holy?” and “Justifying sin”. You think I don’t read scripture or know that we are supposed to be holy? If Glee or House hinders my spiritual life in any way I will cut it out, but as of right now… I benefit from them (House much more so). The more you talk to atheists, the more you will realize that we live in completely different worlds and the more you can learn the better. Of-course that should not mean a sacrifice of our righteousness, and here is where we divid. I do not think that there is any biblical evidence that watching House is wrong if done with an active analytical viewing. You can look at sin and have the glory of God magnified through it because of comparison. Why are there unbelievers in the first-place? To contrast the GLORY of God. “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory” Romans 9:22-23

  12. Wes Rhodes
    October 8, 2010 at 1:31 pm

    Also I think John Piper is clear in his opinion on the issue with the previous quote and this one: “You don’t have to avoid engaging with culture if your commitment to analysis is radically biblical and you mean to really distance yourself from anything unbiblical that you may find there.”
    I would consider John Piper to be a very respectable figure in the christian church today, and Im positive that he has seen Phil 4:8 before. He knows what he is talking about (that is not to say that he is inerrant or definitely correct) but the issue goes deeper than what you are acknowledging. There is not a universal answer for whether Glee or House are okay to watch. It depends entirely on the viewer and how they respond (behaviorally and psychologically) to the media being watched.

  13. October 8, 2010 at 1:55 pm

    Wes Rhodes :

    Of-course watching pornography is wrong, for one it is real sin and only sin with no beneficial aspects, and two, it generates lust in the heart of the viewers.

    Define “real sin.”

  14. Wes Rhodes
    October 8, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Not scripted, not in character, just blatant self-originated sin.

  15. October 8, 2010 at 5:30 pm

    Wes Rhodes :

    Not scripted, not in character, just blatant self-originated sin.

    Maybe we should begin with defining “sin.”

    Why is watching pornography a “real sin” but watching a teen pray to God to touch his girlfriend’s breasts considered an academic pursuit of culture? Both are sexually explicit.

  16. Wes
    October 8, 2010 at 6:56 pm

    No, the act of the people in the pornographic video is “real sin”, the other is scripted and fake. Also if that were all that comprised the show then I wouldnt watch it, but reducing the entire show to just one scene for the purpose of proving a point is wrong.

  17. Wes
    October 8, 2010 at 7:01 pm

    And why are you ignoring the John Piper quotes? Do you think you know more than him? Do you think he is blind in his statements? I mean you talk like its an apparent fact, why does probably the most iconic pastor for biblical teaching today disagree?

    • October 11, 2010 at 9:12 am

      You’re placing my weight and authority on a fallible pastor than on Scripture. You cannot use a John Piper quote to justify being addicted to a show that promotes sinfulness.

      As I’ve stated, I own 5 seasons of House M.D., and I enjoy it. But my post was stating that if they continue to blast homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle, then it would be wise for me to stop watching it.

      As far as Glee goes, I have not reduced the entire show to just one scene for the purpose of proving a point, I have watched multiple shows and recognized that it is sending HORRIBLE messages about life. Yes, it might be scripted, but it glorifies sin.

      You can quote John Piper, Francis Chan, and John MacArthur for all I care – I’ll continue to use God’s Word as my basis.

  18. Justin
    October 9, 2010 at 2:49 am

    I’m going to have to disagree with you when you say that any form of fictional characters and a fictional plot are going to give you a real insight into the minds and life of those you claim to be studying. Those shows are made for entertainment purposes and to make money. There have been lawsuits about shows needing to have homosexuals in them. Why do you think there are so many of them now? Until we decide we aren’t going to support these shows, it’s going to get worse and worse.

    Documentaries, while they can be entertaining, are made for the purpose of giving information. I doubt the people who write these scripts have degrees in Sociology, Psychology and every other type of education that would be required to properly vindicate your argument.

    Are you saying that sin is something we should live with and be ok with because it contrasts the glory of God and show’s how holy he is?

    I’m sure if you wanted to learn about these things you claim to learn about, watching House is not the best way to do so. Think about it this way…
    If I were to talk to an atheist who considers himself to be educated and smart, would I use examples from a fictional show or story? Definitely not. If that argument was tried with me, I’d not only give no value to the evidence given at that time but all future evidence would be on the chopping block too. Just like a college paper cannot use WiKiPedia for a source.

    If Jesus calls for our best, why not use the best resources for these things you feel lead to research?

  19. Wes
    October 10, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    I guess my response did not go through, basically what I said was: 1. House really does have several psychologists and doctors that are heavily involved in the script. 2. God suffers sinners for the sole purpose of magnifying His glory. 3. It is not our job to judge the actions of unbelievers, why should we prevent homosexuals from being on TV? Legally there is no basis for discriminating and as Christians we have to honor laws unless they go against the Bible. Hating on homosexuals is NOT something we should do. Love on them and evangelize, but not discriminate. They are no more sinners than other unbelievers.

    • October 11, 2010 at 9:19 am

      Where in the world did you get the idea that we are “hating on homosexuals.” I can guarantee you that is not the case at all. The fact is, homosexuality is a sin. If you disagree with this, then you’re relying too heavily upon man and not upon God’s Word. Nowhere in any of these posts was it stated that we should hate on homosexuals, but instead, we should despise and flee from sin. Watching a show that accepts and glorifies the homosexual lifestyle is allowing it into your mind.

      Stop putting words in Justin’s and my mouth. I guarantee you that you do not want to travel the road of “you guys are hating on homosexuals” because you’re opening up a can of worms that will make you look super foolish and ignorant.

      If you want to continue to watch House, Glee, and any other show that glorifies homosexuality, adultery, fornication, and other sins that are CLEARLY condemned in the Bible for “cultural edification” then by all means, feel free. But I can read right through your justification using a John Piper quote as your basis.

      I 100% agree with the John Piper quote. But I also recognize that he will not sit at home and week after week be addicted to a show that entertains him. He watched Avatar – yipee! I’ve watched movies for the sole purpose to understand the movie and be able to talk with those who enjoy it about the anti-Christian themes found therein. But, I would love to have ole Piper to pipe in here (see what I did there?) to give his thoughts on the issue. I have a huge feeling that he is not saying, “Watch a show week after week to understand culture better because you’re curious about a disease.” But instead, “Watch a show to understand the issues. When the sin creeps in, be cautious, avoid the show, but now you understand the issues that are dealt with weekly with the audience.”

      Regardless, if that’s not what John Piper was going after, I hope he joins the conversation so I can tell him that he is erroneous and ignoring Scripture, too.

  20. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 10:07 am

    Yes, me and Piper are avoiding scripture, whereas you are just misusing and misunderstanding scripture…much better. You continue to not understand my points and still think I watch House to learn about a disease. You said pretty much the opposite of what Piper’s quote says. Again, SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONDEMN IT. All you have provided are references everyone has seen hundreds of times, its not that Im ignoring it, but that they really has nothing contradicting the action being debated. Your thoughts/actions can be molded towards the likeness of God by watching secular media if you are contrasting the morality of them with the morality of the Bible. And I said “hatin on homosexuals” because Justin said we need to keep them out of the media, what about unbelievers, smokers, drunkards, etc.? Sin doesn’t come from watching sin, but when you allow it in your life, and you have NO Scriptural basis to disprove that. That is unless you continue to presuppose the sin and have more circular arguments. Unless you can provide biblical proof that it is wrong, I will follow the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

  21. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 10:25 am

    I see words were put in my mouth again.

    My brother is a homosexual. I have studied these things. I’ll let you decide if you want to open that can of worms as Ryan has referenced.

    How is the enjoyment week after week of blatant depravity not letting sin into your life? If anything you should watch these shows and be appalled that this is the social norm now. Sure I will watch things and ignore some stuff within them as an excuse to continue to tune in, but I would never say that scripture tells me I should watch this as a way to learn about the culture. Why not? Because you are enjoying and tuning into something that is pushing an agenda. Society has changed, not scripture.

    I have a friend in med-school. She laughs at House. Why? Because a lot of it is made up. You have people who are in the entertainment purpose because they want to make money. This show is not about education.

  22. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 10:26 am

    By the way, twisting words might work when dealing with a verbal communication but when it’s written out to go back through that’s pretty difficult to do. It just nullifies your arguments.

    John Piper is not God. Why not use the word of God rather than the word of John Piper in your next comment.

    And please, if you’re going to quote me, get the quote correct.

  23. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 10:38 am

    “There have been lawsuits about shows needing to have homosexuals in them. Why do you think there are so many of them now? Until we decide we aren’t going to support these shows, it’s going to get worse and worse.”
    You said it, not me. My point is that you singled them out.

    You have a friend in MED-SCHOOL. My dad is a doctor, the reason your friend thinks it is made up is because they are usually rare connections between the diseases that she most likely cant understand yet.

    Ive used the word of God, you have ignored it. You have corrupted the word of God by trying to make it say something that it obviously doesn’t. The verse that says “Do not watch secular media”, bring that to me. When you get down to it, anything an unbeliever does IS sin, so then is it sin to ever watch an unbeliever in the media?

    Start making rational arguments, and stop having circular reasoning. Better, read some biblically based books on this issue, and get back to me.

  24. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Read the Bible…. Why read these books?

    And that is a perfect example of a subtle twist. Did I say we need to keep them out of the media? Nope. What I was arguing is the fact that us Christians just accept whatever is put into the media. Homosexuals on the other hand, not only do they sue if a show is anti-gay, they will sue if there isn’t a gay in the show. It’s happened before and it will happen again. Why is this being allowed? Because we have Christians who twist scripture into saying it’s fine to show these things in the media. It’s fine to sin so we can observe it. What edification comes from this? This is not research.

    You should also look up the definition of circular reasoning as that’s exactly what you’re doing right now.

    If these books are written from a biblical stand point, why not use these verses they claim to be supporting as your evidence? Are you saying John Piper or these other authors can better tell us the inspired word of God than the man who was inspired to write most of the New Testament? I believe we’ve given you evidence from scripture. If these men are basing their writings off scripture, why can’t you provide the scripture to do these things they say to do?

    I did single out gays. I never said I didn’t. You said I was hating on them. That would be a perfect example of your subtle twisting of my words. Again, last chance, do you want to go down the anti-gay road? This is one that hits very close to home here. I’m not sure you’re as qualified to talk about what is and is not anti-gay and ok because it’s not a stumbling block to the weak in that area.

    I’m not posting scripture again as you obviously ignored all the other references that were posted. Circular argument??? I think that’s what it is. The same point being made over and over while ignoring the new evidence. Yep, that’s it.

    I would start making a rational argument but that would discount the other arguments I’ve posted from scripture. I think Ryan has covered it pretty well too. I see you’ve come to the point in your argument where rather than producing new evidence you’ve come to twisting my words and trying to insult my intelligence. I think you’ve been studying atheists and non-Christians a little too much as you are presenting an argument much like an atheist backed into a corner as they realize they have no argument.

    Bring me scripture to support your argument.

    Are you saying the best way for you to research this disease is to watch House? You have still not answered that question. Another method of Circular Arguments as you fail to recognize a new point and continue with your same original one.

    Just thought I’d point some things out about the way you are approaching this as you feel you only need to bash my intelligence and twist my words.

  25. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 2:56 pm

    Wes :
    No, the act of the people in the pornographic video is “real sin”, the other is scripted and fake. Also if that were all that comprised the show then I wouldnt watch it, but reducing the entire show to just one scene for the purpose of proving a point is wrong.

    Really? So all porn is not scripted? So if it were scripted would it be ok? I’m fairly certain most of it is scripted. It’s just another workhorse industry making money where they can.

  26. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 3:01 pm

    I don’t want to be accused of avoiding a question so I’ll hit this again on keeping gays out of the media.

    It’s not with keeping gays out of the media. The problem is the glorification of “sin” in the media (real or scripted). The acceptance of sin in media has lead to the acceptance of sin in the church. The acceptance of such sin into media and society would be why I think both my siblings decided to take that path in their life and why they think that they are fine in doing so. We have these “Christian” authors and pastors who would like to avoid using scripture in their message because it might be offensive or “hateful/judgmental.” Instead we have the bluring of the lines of absolute truth. We see this in your argument. The enjoyment of others sin (real or scripted) is ok while if we were to do those acts ourselves they are sin.

    Shows like Glee, from what I can tell, not only contain sin but push for others to accept it. They also are irreverent to God. The Holy Cheezus? Praying to touch your girlfriends boob? That doesn’t sound irreverent at all… (sarcasm, I’d hate to be misquoted again)

    What are your thoughts on the new Comedy Central cartoon about Jesus Christ being a normal dude trying to live up to his father’s ridiculous plans for his life? What about Family Guy as they depict Jesus in irreverent ways? How about South Park?

  27. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 3:05 pm

    I misunderstood what your argument was for the reference to homosexuals in the media. But back on topic. I did not ignore a single biblical reference, the problem is that they proved nothing and I already showed you why. Look up circular argument. Its when your conclusions come from presuppositions because you are expecting the conclusion you already believe. I am not making a circular argument, I am just waiting on a valid argument on which to debate. Again for probably the third time, I never said I used House to study a disease but the psychology and worldview that a life threating disease brings. If you dont want your intelligence insulted, pay attention and keep up. You have provided no more scripture than I have, why do you act like you have? Your verses would be fantastic if your conclusion werent based on circular reasoning. Because you presuppose that it is sin, your argument falls apart. Again I ask you to show me how it is a sin. How would a rational argument discredit your previous argument anyways?

  28. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    The acceptance of sin in media has lead to the acceptance of sin in the church.

    And there was no sin before secular media?

    Back to the porn thing. Porn is real whether its scripted or not, but say you have a character on a TV show that is portrayed as a druggie. Just because that is who his character is, it doesn’t make it true…he is not really commiting the sin. In porn, there is no faking, they are going through the act of sin.
    Dont twist my words if you dont want me to twist yours

  29. October 11, 2010 at 3:32 pm

    Wes :

    Yes, me and Piper are avoiding scripture, whereas you are just misusing and misunderstanding scripture…much better. You continue to not understand my points and still think I watch House to learn about a disease. You said pretty much the opposite of what Piper’s quote says. Again, SCRIPTURE DOES NOT CONDEMN IT.

    This is absolutely dangerous.

    You and John Piper aren’t even on the same page.

    You have used one set of Scripture to back up your thoughts and that was to say that we should take part in watching sin so God’s glory should be seen. That is laughable and ridiculous. Romans 6:1 deals with that issue.

    And please, do not accuse me of misusing Scripture whenever you are simply justifying your addiction to Glee. This is the bottom line. Glee is filth. It glorifies homosexuality, sex, and other sins. When the Bible says to flee from sin, it is not a recommendation. You can take it as a recommendation, but I choose to flee. This is ridiculous though.

    You are more than welcome to comment on my page, but when you go into defense mode, it makes you look foolish.

    Don’t claim that you have used Scripture when you simply have not.

    And on the issue of pornography – you are laughable at best with your attempts. No, 13 is not really a bi-sexual in real life, but it depicts her lifestyle as a bi-sexual as acceptable. It sends a message to the culture that it is not sin. Yet, she is having sex outside of God’s proclaimed marital standards of a man and woman. Is it because she has a disease? I can guarantee you the writers are not concerned about her freaking disease and the psychological effects it has on her life, driving her into bisexuality. No, instead, they are concerned about making the show sexual in nature so hormone ravaged men and women will watch it.

    Deny that. I know you will. But taking part in secular media that glorifies sin is not wise. Why can I not find a verse that deals with the issue? Because they didn’t have a form of secular media that broadcast like we do today.

    Do you think that Paul and Jesus would have attended a live performance of a dramatic presentation in the first century that glorified sin in order to “better understand the people they were dealing with?” If you say yes, it is the most ridiculous answer in the world. Jesus and Paul were consistently warning people of sin and telling them to completely surrender to Christ.

    But hey, quote me something from a book on the issue. I’m sure God will be happy that His Word has taken a second seat.

  30. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 3:54 pm

    Paul was aware of Satan’s devices (2 Cor 2:11) and everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial (1 Cor 6:12). Of course there is no verse that deals with this directly, that is my whole point. As much as you will deny it, you can benefit from watching secular media. If you can’t then don’t watch it. Just don’t be ignorant and accuse everyone that gets benefit from it of sinning. Watching House does not hinder me from fleeing from sin, yet you act like you are the supreme authority on this issue and assume that you know how my sipiritual life is being affected. You don’t. I have already said before, I dont think that watching it is beneficial for everyone, but you have no authority to say that it is universally sin. And you act like I encourage people to sin in order that grace may abound. No, I encourage people to be able to weigh their morals against the lies of secular culture and find Glory in the magnificence of God. I am most satified by God when I see how terribly wretched life could be if not for His saving grace, and anything I can do to gain insight into the minds of the lost for the purpose of saving them, I will do. It is not as if I sit on the couch all day and surround myself with images of sin. Knowledge without action is evil. Do not judge my motives without even knowing me.

  31. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 3:59 pm

    And don’t even try to insult my use of scripture, your use has been as elementary as an Armenian using John 3:16 to prove that there is no election because it has the word “whoever” in it. Until you see that the issue goes much deeper, you remain uninformed

  32. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 4:09 pm

    I have been causing divisions among brothers. My heart has not been in the right place, and I believe this to be a matter that wont be settled. So I hope yall have fantastic Godly lives, and I won’t comment any more.

  33. October 11, 2010 at 4:56 pm

    It seems that you’re a big House cheerleader. House is not the issue here. I wrote about Glee. Glee is not beneficial. That’s the bottom line. Anyone who sits there and claims that it is, is a liar. That’s the bottom line.

    I am no authority, but I am gleaning from the Scripture. If you watch Glee week after week, it is not so you can learn more about youth culture, singing, and the brokenness of people because of sin. That’s a lie, too.

    As for the Arminian statement, I knew when you started quoting John Piper and clung to his quote more than Scripture you probably held to the Calvinistic doctrine.

    I am actually very informed. I’m informed well enough to know the error in justifying sin. Play whatever game you would like with your shows. But for me, when a show, whether House, Sesame Street, Glee, or the 700 Club begins to justify living in sin then I cannot logically conclude that is beneficial to my spiritual life, and I will 100% preach the truth that other Christians should not take part in it on a regular basis.

    Nothing in your arguments has backed up your original Piper quote of watching it from a cultural perspective, but instead has reeked of justification for an addiction to a show.

    You haven’t caused any division. In fact, Justin and I have talked extensively about this at other times. There is no issue to be settled at all, as we have brought Scripture to the table in which you have brought quotes and out of context verses to back up your justification.

    I do hope you see the error of your way and fix your attitude.

  34. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 10:42 pm

    Ryan… Don’t even get me started on Sesame Street…

    That being said, I did get off track with House. I was merely pointing out that it is not a case that could be justified as being research as there are much better sources that are not for entertainment value.

    I think the difference here on Glee is that it’s based entirely around these values and irreverent themes that go against God’s word. If Glee were being used as a research tool, I couldn’t see it going further than a couple of episodes. I definitely would say it is wrong to praise it for what it is.

    That is all.

  35. Justin
    October 11, 2010 at 10:49 pm

    I will actually give a great example of when a show goes too far and needs to be removed from a Christian life. I loved the show Trauma. Others hated it obviously and it never got to finish it’s first season but I loved it. From episode one, there was a homosexual on the show. I was ok with this as that is the true depiction of the world. Where I had to decide it needed to be removed (although I was foolish enough to go against my convictions) was when it went from having a homosexual character to blasting the “intolerant Christians” and the society that would not tolerate his lifestyle. This was a blatant agenda being pushed upon the many people who tuned in every week. If people knew I was watching such a show with an agenda as this, it would blur the line of what is sin and what is not as far as these people see me. How could I claim that homosexuality is wrong then tune in every week to a show that was so obviously pushing the agendas of the gays? Unfortunately, I did not tune out. The only thing I tuned out was hearing the gay agenda. Was it being taught? Yes. Was I supporting it? Yes. If you are not for me you are against me…. I think the same can be said in reverse. I was not against the teaching of the gay agenda and the bashing of “intolerant Christians” therefor I was for it.

    I hope this helps a little bit. If not, I bid you farewell and hope that some good can come of this whole conversation.

  36. Wes
    October 11, 2010 at 10:56 pm

    “If you are not for me you are against me…. I think the same can be said in reverse. ”
    That is wise, also Jesus himself said it. Mark 9:40

  37. Justin
    October 12, 2010 at 9:25 am

    I know he did. I just didn’t put the exact reference as I was about to fall asleep.

    I think that last comment better sums up my stance on this matter. As I said, my brother, who grew up in church, came out a few years ago. I think a big problem that lead him down this path is the social acceptance and the push to “be who you are”. This is why I think it’s important to point out such problems in the media.

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